B-Schooled Podcast Episode #295: Ann Hsing on Finance, Food, and the Nonlinear MBA Path

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and length. Timestamps refer to the audio.

Stacy Blackman: Welcome to B-Schooled, the podcast by Stacy Blackman Consulting. I’m Stacy Blackman, and for more than 20 years, I’ve worked with ambitious, high-potential people navigating business school and everything that comes after. This series is called Paths Less Traveled.

In it, I’m sitting down with MBA grads whose paths evolved over time in unexpected ways. These are conversations about optionality, reinvention, and what’s really possible when you stop thinking about the MBA as a first job and start thinking about it as a foundation. Let’s get into it.

Today, I am sitting down with Ann Singh, whom I initially met as my Bar Method workout instructor, and we learned we were both Kellogg alums. Ann has a really unexpected, fascinating, and very successful post-Kellogg path, so we’re going to dig into it. I’ll start with her bio.

Upon graduating from undergrad at MIT, Ann opened and operated a tea shop in Boston. She then worked as a strategy consultant at the small boutique Caledon Group, focusing on private equity due diligence projects and pricing structures. Next, Ann returned to school to earn her MBA from the Kellogg Graduate School of Management.

Following business school, she was VP in equity derivative sales at Credit Suisse in New York City. She then joined the Alinea Restaurant Group. At the time of her departure, she was director of business operations.

Ann is now the CEO of Celine and Pasjoli restaurants in Los Angeles, two uber-hot, uber-fabulous, uber-successful, and popular restaurants here in LA. So thank you so much, Ann, for joining me and taking a break from all the things you juggle to chat.

Ann Hsing: Yeah, no, thanks for having me.

Stacy: So let’s rewind to the beginning. You graduated from MIT, and my guess is that you have one of the more unique post-MIT career paths. You didn’t go into big tech.

What was the motivation for the bubble tea shop?

Ann: Oh, gosh. So long ago. I’m so old.

Stacy: Not as old as me.

Ann: So I graduated from MIT back in 2002.

So the year right after the tech bubble crash blew up. And honestly, when I was at MIT, I started off the normal path. After freshman year, I thought I wanted to go, but I wasn’t sure what I wanted to major in.

So, I just did computer science because everyone else does computer science. And then I think it was my sophomore year, the first day I sat in electrics and circuits, and I thought I’m not really into this. So it took a few twists and turns.

I think I probably changed my major about four times. I ended up settling on economics. But in that time, it was probably at MIT when I started to think about an alternative path for a career as opposed to all the cookie-cutter ones coming out of MIT, which were consulting, banking, or some sort of tech job.

So when I was at MIT, I played music my whole life, and I’ve loved music. So I interned at record companies. So I interned at Universal Music Group.

And then the summer between my junior and my senior year, I interned at Capitol Records out in LA. Now, during this time in 2001, I don’t know if people even know what this software called Napster is. So Napster, this was totally revolutionary, connected computers to each other, basically let you share audio and music files to the point that the record industry was in a little bit of a crisis, thinking how to monetize this idea because everyone was sharing music for free.

So long story short, I didn’t know what the future of the music industry was. I ended up coming back to school, really bad year for hiring. And like I mentioned, having interned at Capitol Records out here in LA at the time in Los Angeles, like bubble tea was everywhere.

And so being in Boston with all these college students, I mean, there’s a gazillion colleges there. I don’t know. I just thought, what if somebody opened up a bubble tea store?

Stacy (5:09): And- And was that kind of the beginning of your love of food and beverage and like where you are now? Do you see a connection?

Ann: Yeah, it’s funny. I never, first, I never thought I would be somebody who would open my own business or dream about opening my own business or dream about being my own boss. I was just never in anything that I considered for food, I guess. I mean, yeah, I like to go out to eat, but it wasn’t a “I have to be in the food industry” or “I want to open my own restaurant” or anything like that.

So I feel like I just kind of stumbled upon the bubble tea cafe with the idea that, well, I’m really young. I don’t have any commitments.

And I’ll just try and learn as much as I can. If it doesn’t work out, at least I have the rest of my life to pay off my loans.

Stacy: I mean, you were really young. And that is like a bold, you know, it’s one thing to do that out of, say, business school or later on. But like that, that was a big, bold decision. So, yay you!

Ann: Yeah, I guess. I mean, looking back, I made so many stupid choices and stupid decisions, but it just didn’t really feel nobody was hiring. Like, I didn’t know what the alternative was.

And for me, it didn’t seem that bold. But I guess I’m the youngest child. So.

Stacy (6:46): Well, you know, I just need to throw this in there that your class, which, you know, at Bar Method is the hardest. Like, you are the hardest teacher. I did your class, I think, Saturday?

I mean, it is so hard. And it’s like, I can see when I found out that you went to Kellogg and you worked in finance and you were doing all these, like, amazing, bold entrepreneurial moves with running, like, super hot restaurant. It all kind of adds up.

Like, you’re not, you’re smart, you’re cut. Like, you can do it. So, that’s reflected in your Bar Method class. For what it’s worth.

Ann: Thank you!

Stacy: So, bubble tea, super fun. Then you moved into strategy consulting and then decided to get an MBA. So, I always like to hear, you know, what were you seeking when you made that MBA decision? What sort of, where did that come from? And what were you?

Ann: So, similarly to the whole bubble tea thing that I feel like just kind of happened, maybe with a little bit of calculation. But I had been about a year, year and a half into consulting. And I just, I actually just didn’t really like it. It took me a while to figure out what I didn’t like about it.

But what I liked the analytics and the problem solving. But what frustrated me was that at the end of the day, when you were done with the project and you handed off your results to the client, you weren’t part of the implementation. And you didn’t ever see any results.

And I didn’t feel any, for me, I didn’t have satisfaction from discovering what the problem was and coming up with a solution. I wanted to be part of executing the solution.

Stacy (8:42): So, that’s such a common thing that you hear from consultants.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. So, and to be fair, my last project there was, it was actually an implementation project.

We built this whole strategy, pricing strategy, and then they hired us to come in and implement it for them. But it was still, it just felt still very hands-off because, you know, we’re just the people suggesting. So, about a year into it, I started looking into other careers.

Of course, going back to the, oh, well, maybe I can do the music industry now, or maybe I can do entertainment, or I just wanted something that every industry kind of has fundamental business questions and issues that they have to deal with. So, I wanted to find an industry that I, in general, was interested in. So, whether it be entertainment, like we all watch movies, we all watch television, we all listen to music, and then find that business role within that industry.

And as I was searching, a lot of the positions I was looking at had MBA preferred or required, which really, really surprised me. You know, when I was younger, my, or sorry, at Caledon, my managers, because they all went to business school, right? And my manager said, well, you should consider business school.

And I said, well, why would I go to business school? I already opened up my own business. And then after I started searching for these jobs, and it said MBA required, then I thought, okay, well, I guess maybe I should apply to business school as an option.

It was more because I didn’t want to be in consulting anymore. And I was using business school as an option for another step. So, I mean, truthfully, in addition to applying to business schools, I applied to jobs at hedge funds to see if maybe I can make that jump.

(10:44) Also realized that in general, finance don’t really hire if you don’t have finance experience, unless you’re coming out of school. So whether that be undergrad or business school. And then, I mean, honestly, I still remember I had applied to go work at this really well-known bakery in Boston, just to be like a morning AM clerk.

And I had told my parents that if I didn’t get into business school, I was still quitting my consulting job. And I was going to go work at this bakery. And I think I gave them a heart attack.

They’re used to these things by now, but at the time. Yeah. So, yeah.

And then when I got into Kellogg, I just couldn’t really find that job in finance. And then I kind of just ended up there. Again, not something part of a planned path of, I know a lot of people come out of undergrad, I’m going to work three to five years in banking, then I’m going to apply to business school, and then I’m going to come back and work my way up the ladder. Nothing like that.

Stacy (11:48): Yeah. But I think that a lot of people, yes, that’s true. A lot of people, you know, they have their 10-year plan, but it’s interesting how many people graduate thinking they won’t go to business school.

And then they’re like three years into their career and they’re like, business school is such a great place to be able to pivot. Take the time, meet great people, open up your worldview, expand your horizons, reflect, brainstorm, and then totally switch directions. So I think that’s, it’s very common as well.

Ann: Yeah. I mean, I definitely think business school, I used it to pivot. I don’t think I would have been as successful in my pivot without it. And listen, and I had a blast. I think everyone should go to business school.

Stacy: Yeah. Let’s talk about that for a minute. I mean, had a blast, did all the things, did the trips, did, I don’t know, brand challenge, like all the fun things. Just briefly, like a little bit about your time there outside of all the fun.

Ann (13:05): Okay. So I, let’s see, I went to Kellogg 2007 to 2009. I lived in this, it’s, I don’t know if it’s Kellogg-y anymore. It’s a pretty infamous apartment building across from the 24 hour Burger King. It’s called the Greenhouse.

So it was, it was, it’s been passed through the years as through Kellogg students. And it’s kind of the place that everyone goes for parties on the weekends.

And you can, if you live there, you just open up your place. So I lived with two guys from Notre Dame there. And it, it was just super fun, honestly. Got there.

My manager at Caledon had recommended that I decide, or I make the decision what I wanted to do for my summer internship. Cause he said, you know, the recruiting starts a lot earlier than you think, which, which was really good advice. And so for me, even though I said, I wanted to do something else in my essays, which is what everyone does.

I went in thinking I wanted to do a sales and trading internship for the summer, which I know is less common at Kellogg because Kellogg is known for marketing consumer products and brand management and consulting. So I went in knowing that, and it made my recruiting process a lot easier because I could be super specific and I wasn’t kind of shopping around. And to be fair, the recruiting did start right away.

But yeah, I mean, let’s see at Kellogg, I had a great time. I was a sim leader. I was an orientation leader. I did a Kwest trip.

Stacy (14:56): Where’d you go?

Ann: We took our kids to the Dominican Republic. And what section were you in? I was a moose, but I was an orientation leader for the poets.

Actually, because both my roommates were poets and one of my roommates and I, we were the poet section leaders and also the section leaders for moose. I mean, they’re obviously my good friends. They were, they were doing their thing.

So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, to be fair, I remember the first day of orientation, the first day of orientation, you know, they split you into these groups. And the first assignment is, I’m sure they’ve changed it by now. The first assignment is to come up with a two-minute cheer for your section.

Stacy: I had that too. Yes!

Ann:  I thought, oh my God. It was just so awkward. Yeah. It’s so awkward. And I, you know, I remember when I was an orientation leader, I told all the first years, I said, you’re going to do some things this week in which you hope your friends from home never see or hear about, but just embrace it. It’ll, it’ll, it’ll bring you guys all closer.

And I mean, yeah, like when, when I was an intern at Credit Suisse, all the other MBAs would make fun of me because I’m from Kellogg and it’s so rah, rah, rah, which I think makes us the best.

Stacy (16:31): Absolutely! I mean, sorry, but even my husband who went to a top business school said, “You guys have more fun.”

Ann: So yeah. Yeah. And the, uh, oh, the other thing that was such a blast every year was the ski trip. One of my best friends, she went to Wharton and she said, “Oh, we do a ski trip too.”

And I said, ” Yes, but how many people go on your ski trips?” At Wharton it’s about maybe 150, 200. I was like, “Oh no, at Kellogg, it’s maybe 700 or 800.”

And it was so fun going, and then also realizing all of my friends are really good skiers. So we would all ski together.

Stacy: Awesome.

Ann: So yeah, just really had a great time overall. The first term I will say was a little difficult relearning how to study. But after that, it’s just kind of getting back in the groove.

Stacy (17:25): And by the way, juggling, I mean, I really did find this myself juggling studying, not just with all the fun, but like, I mean, like what your boss said about the recruiting starting day one, it’s like presentations and conferences and like clubs. And I mean, it’s just like the fire hose and you gotta take it all in.

So, you then went to Credit Suisse, a technical high-pressure environment, I’m guessing. And then, you know, pivot again, your pivots are very gutsy. So, like what was going on in your head when you went into finance and then into food?

Ann: Yeah, so if you’re following the timeline, I graduated from college in 2002, a year after the tech bubble burst. And I graduated from Kellogg in ‘09, a year after Lehman crashed. So I joke around next time I go back to school, we should all just short the market, but, uh, something, something big will happen. So, you know, I worked so hard to get this summer internship in sales and trading.

It wasn’t easy coming from Kellogg because again, there are Kellogg people in finance. It’s just not a ton of positions. So there’s maybe one position for the summer at every single bank.

Um, fortunate enough to get a position there. And then the summer of 2008, the, the hire rate out of an internship was I think 30 or 40%. But I was very fortunate to get an offer on a very coveted desk, the equity derivatives desk.

(19:23) So I did go back to school for a minute, thinking maybe I should think about some other job path, but at the end of the day, like I came here to try and try that industry, and I got a job offer. So in the moment, I was like, I’m just going to take it and have a great second year. So I went to Credit Suisse, definitely a high-pressure,  good money, good hours.

I will say, I think for me after four years, four and a half years, the thing about sales and trading is it’s the, the longer you’re there, the more senior you’re there. There’s a lot of politics. I mean, business politics you have to play with that happens at a lot of big companies.

And I didn’t necessarily see myself learning anything more, but just having more of those responsibilities. I already had a lot of my client lists were really big client lists. I had already done a lot of pretty big transactions.

And so I just, yeah, I just decided I wasn’t, I wasn’t feeling that fulfilled and was looking to see what other options I had. And of course, the natural option is, Oh, I’ll go to the buy side. I’ll go to a hedge fund.

I’ll go to a mutual fund or something like that. But it just, again, I’m in full transparency. I don’t really care about the stock market. Like everyone I worked with talk about the personal portfolios all the time and what was going on. Like, I don’t really care. I only cared because it made me good at my job.

I had a moment of: maybe finance isn’t for me. Actually, it took a while for me to do a little bit of soul searching to figure out what it was I wanted. And through advice from my brother, I talked to a lot of our friends who enjoyed their job and what they were doing and how they came to that.

My brother has a lot of friends who are in very different industries. He’s in media, media publishing, which is really different. He has a lot of friends who have different experiences and, I kind of just came back to food.

My boss, and she’s my mentor at Credit Suisse, she’s from MIT. Her husband is the opening chef of Eleven Madison Park. He also created the Shake Shack for her.

Stacy (21:56): Oh, I’ve been there [EMP]. Yeah. And now they’re vegan, right?

Ann: Oh, they changed back.

Stacy: Oh, I went there when they were vegan because I was so fascinated by it, and it was great.

Ann: Yeah, well, he’s not the chef there anymore, but Eleven Madison Park is actually in the Credit Suisse building. So that’s how they met. And you know, we, we bonded over just liking going out to eat. Like I’ve always liked going out to eat and food, and it just so happened.

Her husband does a lot. There are these like food festivals, like LA Times. At the time, there was Los Angeles Food and Wine. There’s the Pebble Beach Food and Wine. And what happens is they invite all these chefs in, you get a table, you get, you put out a bite, like 500 to a thousand bites, people buy tickets, and they get to sample.

Stacy (22:54): Yes. Like there’s the Aspen Food and Wine that we’ve been to. And, at least in Aspen, it’s much more wine or not even wine. It’s the Aspen alcohol festival.

Ann: Right. So, what would happen is he would be doing these food events and you need to bring somebody to come help you plate and talk to guests. And, instead of just paying one of his employees, like I would be in Los Angeles for client meetings. So, I would just help him at some of these events.

And it just got to the point in which I thought, I wonder who tells the chef where to open his next location, or I wonder who tells the chef how to improve his profits or, you know, who, who the business person is.

Stacy: He has a business person, like that might be why restaurants don’t do that.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. Which brings me to my next point came quickly to the realization, like, this is not a thing in especially smaller, independent restaurants. I mean, you look at like a Shake Shack or something that’s like a large corporate food establishments have all the different departments and are thinking of it very much like from a traditional business perspective, but a small business is still a small business.

And for restaurants, their number one concern is just making sure they can open doors for the night and that they make payroll. So, they don’t really have anyone dedicated to thinking about longer term strategy or maybe how to cut costs in an effective way. And everything’s just very in that moment is what I learned.

Stacy (24:51): That’s such a labor of love that, yeah, it’s probably not. I mean, I know some chefs who have started and, you know, they do it because they love food and cooking and they don’t think about that business.

Ann: Yeah. And I think in general, the food industry and smaller businesses could benefit from more business-minded people coming in to help guide, you know, the chefs who are essentially creatives. So, yeah, long story short, Credit Suisse was rumored to be doing a round of layoffs, and I put my hand up.

My boss was very nice about it. And then about a week before my last day at Credit Suisse, I saw a listing on from the Alinea group in Chicago for a summer intern. So, I had spoken to my mentor and her husband, the chef.

And I said, you know, “who are these people that help make these decisions?” And he said to me, he said, it’s usually somebody who has been working with the chef for a long time. So think like a general manager or, you know, somebody that they just know, but you have to come up with that chef.

So, I didn’t have any real restaurant experience. He said to me that, you know, I was 33 at the time he said, do I think you can start at a restaurant working maybe as a host or something, because you don’t have any experience and work your way up to general manager and two, three years. Yeah, I have no doubt, but the question is, do you want to do that right now at this point in your life?

And to be honest, I didn’t think that was for me. I didn’t really want to, you know, go back, go and be a host with the hopes of maybe moving my way up. And so I’d actually explored going to work for purveyors, like food adjacent.

So, the people who are supplying the restaurants with their food, with their materials. I had even spoken to a nonprofit that dealt with like food deserts and things like that, but just kind of trying to be adjacent to the industry. And, you know, going back to what I said earlier, just finding an industry that I was interested in to do some work. But anyway, this post from Alinea just sounded exactly like what I wanted.

It was, you’re going to work with the CFO, you’re going to do business analytics. And I, I kind of knew about Alinea being, you know, going to school in Kellogg. All I knew is that it was this super expensive, fancy multi-course tasting menu.

That’s all I knew about it. So, I applied to this job, and the more I read about Alinea, it’s pretty groundbreaking in terms of how they approach the business.

(27:40) So the big thing was they had opened up their second restaurant next, and they did prepaid reservations, which is now such a common thing, right? At the time, no one did it. This was 2011 when they did it, the idea that you had to prepay for your meal.

And if you couldn’t go, you didn’t get your money back because, like a ticket to a concert, you don’t get your money back if you don’t make it. And it’s accepted for concerts, but it’s not accepted for restaurants. And it just, I thought that was so smart and fascinating.

So that’s what actually, what really led me to be interested in Alinea and wanting to work there. And so determined that, you know, I sent in my resume, nobody contacted me for a week, and I was like, okay, how am I going to get the attention of them? And I thought maybe I’ll FedEx my resume over.

Cause nobody doesn’t open a FedEx. But luckily the CFO called me.

Stacy: Oh! Look at that!

Ann: So, I’m really good friends with him now. And he said at the time he thought he was only going to get some undergrads and I was so grossly overqualified. He wasn’t sure, you know, I was going to take the job.

Long story short, got the job. It was just a three-month internship. So, I was going to leave New York in a month, move to Chicago for three months. And it was just with the idea that, Hey, you know, totally new industry. If I don’t like it, it’s just three months of my life. And at least I’ll know.

I don’t really want to work in restaurants and I’m sure if I like it, I’ll do such a good job that they’ll ask me to stay, which is what ended up happening after two months. They gave me a full-time offer.

I mean, it was a huge pay cut, but, and I will be honest. I think if the money at Credit Suisse was pre-leaving money, I think it would have been really, really hard to leave.

Yeah. And really, really hard to like, yeah, really, really hard to leave. Um, but yeah, then I, yeah, went to Alinea and that’s how I ended up in Chicago.

Stacy (29:54): So I’m actually really excited to talk to you about your current role. I mean, how did that come about, you know, moving and kind of starting your own restaurant and finding the chef and it’s just so much and it seems super fun and exciting, but I’m sure also like so challenging and I just want to hear about that shift.

Ann: So, I mean, not far off from what my, what my boss’s husband had said. I met Dave, who is my chef and my partner. He worked at the Alinea group. He was kind of like their number two.

So, he was running the kitchen Alinea. They opened up the second restaurant for him. And, we tell everyone this. He hated me when he first met me. I was, you know, very friendly, very happy, a little too familiar. I get it.

And about maybe six months into me working there, one night the head chef, chef Atkins said to Dave, “I need you to cost out your entire menu.” Now his menu’s like 15, 18 courses. And he didn’t really know how to do it.

So, he comes to see me a little, like, “I think I need help.” And I helped him cost out his old menu. And that’s how we kind of started to build our relationship.

He was like, “I don’t really like you, but I don’t know who else to ask, but you seem to be doing stuff on your computer.” Um, yeah. So, I mean, I ended up becoming good friends with him.

I think he’s a very smart chef in terms of understanding the economics of things and being reasonable. Sometimes the chefs really want to do X and go over the top. They don’t care how much money it costs.

Stacy (31:56): He’s like an artist, but he also gets, understands that you need to pay bills at the end of the day.

Ann: So, you know, he had been at Alinea for 10 years or so and wanted to do his own thing. So after 10 years, he left with the intention of coming to Los Angeles to open a place.

There’s a family from Los Angeles that he had become close with, and they were really interested in him opening a place and working with him to do it. So, he left, and about six months later, I left.

I think it was just kind of time for me to exit. And it was after that, that he asked me if I wanted to join him out here in Los Angeles. So, yeah, that’s how we’re here now.

I mean, it’s so hard. I wouldn’t recommend anyone to go into the restaurant business.

Stacy: I mean, but you’ve been, you’ve definitely outlived the, I feel like restaurants come and go so quickly. You’ve been around.

Ann: Yeah. And I was actually just talking about this with my partner the other day, how COVID was. We had been open three months. No, sorry. Six, six months. We opened in September of 2019. So, it had been open six months. We just had our biggest weekend. And then COVID happened and we shut down.

COVID was such an interesting exercise because it was, it was like actually consulting. It was like, it was one big consulting project, but you had to actually act on everything and see real-time results and constantly pivot. So, I would say we’re still kind of recovering from COVID and the wildfires last year. Celine had been open a month and the wildfires happened.

Stacy: How long were you closed during COVID?

Ann: COVID, um, we were doing takeout.

Stacy: Okay.

Ann: But it was an exercise to figure out how to do our version of takeout, which, you know, we shut down at the time Pasjoli was, kind of, I think people called it like a grant, like a return of grand French dining. So, you know, the average check there was probably like $135 a person.

Very over-the-top food, like a brasserie, really nice. And so with your average entree being $50, like who’s going to back in 2020, who’s going to buy that for takeout?

Stacy (34:52): Yeah. I mean, now you get a smoothie on Postmates. That’s what it is.

Ann: So, it’s like, okay, we can’t. I think we tried for two days. We’re trying take out with our food, but it’s like the food that we make can’t really translate into takeout. Like, it’s plated so beautifully. That’s also part of it, right?

So how are you going to plate it in a takeout container and then get it to someone’s house and make sure it still tastes of the same quality that you want. It’s like in the simplest of terms, a souffle can’t really be done for takeout.

Stacy: I mean, I think we all order different things for takeout than in the restaurant.

Ann: Right. But it’s not, it’s not to be enjoyed the way that the chef is intending it to be enjoyed, right? And so it’s not the best representation of your business. So, we did take out for two days, and we’re like, this isn’t working.

And then we tried to do, you know, the normal takeout food like burgers, sandwiches, whatnot. So, we would be open for lunch for two hours and then we’d be open for dinner from maybe five to nine. And it was just, it was only busy for about an hour, six to seven when everyone wants to eat dinner and we would get destroyed and then we’d all sit around and do nothing and like making minimal sales.

And I thought this is not, this is also not working. So, we ended up pivoting to the way that we do take out now. If we ever do it, we don’t do take out, but it would be multi-course meals that you heat at home.

Oh, so it would be, so it’s a higher, higher cost per person, you know, 65 to a hundred dollars, you get a salad and appetizer, main course, and a dessert. And we, so from a labor perspective, you have people cooking all day, and then we package it up, and then it doesn’t matter if everyone wants to come six to seven to pick it up because they’re just going to heat it at home. And then, if they heat it and prepare it at home, it’s, you know, enjoyed the best way it could be.

So, it’s also thinking, what are things that can be heated at home that’ll still taste great? If you reheat, you know, like stewed meats, things like that, you can’t overcook it, right?

(37:30) And we would change, we would have three different menus for different days. So, we’d run a Coq Au Vin for three days, and we do a beef bourguignon for three days.

And so, in hopes that what we saw was a lot of people would order all three and it would just be a steady stream. So that’s how we ended up pivoting for takeout. But it was a few ups and downs, which, you know, like reminded me of consulting.

How are we going to do this? How are we going to come up with a plan? How are we going to measure if it’s working or not?

When do we decide if we pivot? But the bonus that I didn’t get from consulting was it was me implementing it and seeing if it actually worked. And then when it didn’t work saying we’re going to scratch this and do something else.

Stacy (38:14): Okay. So, a fun fact that I have to mention about Pasjoli is that it was the training ground for The Bear TV show. Jeremy Allen White and Will Poulter trained at your restaurant. So, I mean, that’s kind of fun. What was that like to witness?

Ann: So, the producers actually contacted us during COVID. This is when they were filming their pilot and they said, we’re doing this show. This is the concept we’d like for our main actor to get some exposure. Are you okay with that?

And the producer had done some things that I personally enjoyed, had done some projects that I thought were good and enjoyed. And when I talked to Dave about it, his reaction was, sure, why not? If he sucks, we don’t have to have him come back.

Stacy: So, was he kind of like acting as like a sous chef in the kitchen or just watching?

Ann: No. So I think they put him in a two two-weekt camp class at the Institute of Culinary Education. And then he was on the line cooking because, yeah, I guess, you know, him and Dave sat down. He said, what are you hoping to get from this? And he was so respectful.

Stacy: So, if you went there during that time, you might’ve eaten food prepared by Jeremy Allen White.

Ann: Yes.

Stacy: That’s kind of fun.

Ann: Yeah. He was on the line cooking. Will was as well. A lot of the motions are just repetitions. So, it’s making sure that they get them in. I still remember there was one night, you know, after they’re all done and all the food has gone out, the kitchen team scrubs down. We’re very clean. They clean the kitchen maybe every three hours. So, he’s scrubbing down.

And some of the producers had come to the restaurant to see him. And I looked at him, and I said, “Chef, you don’t have to scrub down.” And he looked at me, goes, “No, I just want to finish out the shift.” Good for you! So nice!

Stacy: I can see Carmi doing that.

Ann: Yeah. It was just funny because I was like, you get it. I was like, oh, we’re good. Like, feel free to sit down with the producers. And he’s just like scrubbing, like putting the soap on the pass.

Stacy (40:46): Yeah. Yeah.  Love it. That’s a fun LA factoid for your restaurant.

So, I mean, I just, this is such a unique environment for an MBA, especially, what skills do you find that you’re drawing on the most? Is it operations, creativity, or what are you challenging yourself with?

Ann: Yeah. You know, honestly, it has to do more with, I would say, I wish I had taken more classes on like management behavior and how to manage people. That’s probably what takes up most of my time. Now, the analytics and things like that, you learn while you’re on the job.

And it is hard for me to say what I learned at Kellogg for analyzing my businesses versus my work experiences. But yeah, it’s one thing I really wish I’d taken more classes of, like, proper organizations, negotiations, things like that. Because what I find myself doing now is I do a book club with my managers, and I pick a different management book and make them read it.

And then we talk about a chapter every week because, you know…

Stacy: What’s a good one?

Ann: Well, right now we’re doing Radical Candor.

Stacy: Oh, okay.

Ann: Yeah. We’ve done the Zingerman’s book before. We read…

Stacy (42:18): What a great idea.

Ann: Yeah. I mean, when other restaurant owners hear, they’re like, “What do you do?” And this is the thing, too. Like I was mentioning way in the beginning, in general, restaurant people, chefs, front of house, like, they don’t care about this. They, it is a, they only care about getting to opening doors.

You know, these things seem extraneous. And in the beginning, when I started with them, I’m sure they were rolling their eyes at me. It’s fine.

Probably like how I felt in my first day of like a soft management class at Kellogg, like, oh, when am I going to use, you know, what am I going to use this for? But again, I wish I paid more attention.

Stacy (43:02): How I feel when I see you approaching me in bar class to make something harder for me. And I’m like, go away, Ann!

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the first time we did it, nobody really talked. Everyone kind of sat around, and now they’re all used to it. Like, hey, we’re going to do a book two times a year.

We’re going to talk about it and be prepared to talk. And so, this last one, it was, it was, it actually felt good. One of my chefs said we were practicing giving and receiving praise and feedback.

So we are practicing it and giving and receiving to each other. And he said to me how much he appreciated that I forced them to do because it’s made him rethink the way that he manages his staff. And he thinks it’s made him better.

And I mean, historically speaking, one thing about the restaurant industry, it’s not a super positive environment. I mean, like with all businesses…

Stacy: It’s like Gordon Ramsey, what you see, like abusing the…

Ann: Exactly. And that was one thing that I talked to Dave about when he said, “Well, you come to LA with me.”

And I said, I’ll do it on the one condition that you prioritize building the right work culture and team culture above everything else. So, in terms of our restaurant, you know, it’s really about at the end of the day, it’s about the people. And the people are what make the business and they’re the representation of you and your business.

(44:39) And so I think from that perspective, yeah, like I wish, you know, I find myself now educating myself on how to manage my people, manage my team, build that culture, which is something at Kellogg.

It’s amazing to me that that school has somehow built this culture with all of its students, because the same thing as you, when I find out someone’s from Kellogg, I am so psyched. And I think everyone should go there.

Stacy: They really, I mean, when I go back for the reunion, I’m just amazed. Wow. That admissions committee, just smart, interesting, collaborative. They get the culture, like the AdCom really knows what they’re doing at Kellogg.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I mean, I just, yes, it’s a fun time, but I think for me, I didn’t realize all the important lessons and all the, you know, all the valuable knowledge I gathered from it until probably I had gotten to this point of my career and having my own business and then trying to manage people. Also, I mean, honestly, the network is amazing.

During COVID, you know, we make these cheesecakes, these burnt Basque cheesecakes.

They’re pretty burnt. Basque cheesecakes now are very much becoming in vogue, but Dave had made them years ago. And during COVID, you know, we didn’t know how long we were going to be closed for.

And I pay for a huge majority of my team’s healthcare because that’s also something not really in restaurant industries, but I believe that people have the right to healthcare and we should treat our employees as professionals and professionals get healthcare, right? So the healthcare is not a small bill, and I don’t have anyone working. Everyone’s been furloughed. I don’t, I don’t have that much sales.

And so, the idea was we’re going to sell X number of cheesecakes, which at the time you could not buy whole cheesecakes. So, we’re like, we’re going to sell these cheesecakes and it’ll pay for our April healthcare bill. Now this requires a lot of Philadelphia cream cheese, and I was talking to my PR team.

I’m like, maybe we should reach out to Philadelphia Cream Cheese and see if they’re willing to do something. And they’re like, well, we reached out blankedly to their PR group, and I haven’t heard anything back. So, I thought, I wonder if someone from Kellogg works for Philadelphia Cream Cheese.

(47:11) But specifically, like Kraft is so big. Even if you found someone in Kraft, because I had, I have friends who work at Kraft. They’re in Chicago.

You know, so I found a random name of a woman who worked under the Philadelphia Cream Cheese brand. And I just shot her an email from my personal Gmail. And I said, “You know, I’m a Kellogg grad. This is happening. Do you think Philadelphia Cream Cheese will be willing to donate cream cheese for us for this cause, we would need this much.”

And sure enough, she wrote back that day and then I drove to go pick it up. Which, you know, we never got an answer from whoever my PR team had emailed.

And same thing when I get an email from someone, you know, maybe, “Oh, I’m from Kellogg and I’m interested in this” and maybe they’re doing a startup for food and they’ve found my name. For sure, I’ll give them the time to talk. So, on the consideration, but yeah, the Philadelphia Cream Cheese one was really great.

And we just do that all the time now, because now, Dave’s like, “Oh, we need this sponsorship. Do you know anyone?”

Stacy (48:23): I love that. Okay. I’ll transition into asking you just some quicker questions. One thing you’d tell your 22-year-old self.

Ann: I don’t know. That’s a good question. I’m not sure, to be honest. Choose your business partners wisely. Or as my husband says, don’t have a business partner.

Stacy: Yeah, that’s a big one. For an MBA applicant thinking their career should be linear, what advice might you give them?

Ann: Oh, gosh, I think I’m the poster child of a nonlinear career, right?

Stacy: You’re definitely a good example.

Ann: When I was at Alinea, and I was hired, I needed to hire an analyst, I need to hire a new me, right? Because our team was expanding. So, I got a lot of applications from mostly consultants who had been in the business for a year or two. And it shocked me how much these kids, who had about a year or two, said to me, “Oh, I, I think I deserve something more senior.”

And I always tell people, I want to look at them and say, “I had like, nine years of work experience and an MBA when I took this job.” I think a lot of times, some people think so much that the next step has to be better than the previous.

But I think it’s okay to take a few steps back to move forward in the long run. Because I started off as an intern at Alinea. Who am I to say that I know anything about that industry? But you have to be okay taking those steps back.

I have friends who won’t. They’re not happy in their jobs, they want to maybe switch industries, or they want to switch jobs, and they won’t make the move because the move feels like a downgrade.

Stacy: Yeah, that’s great advice.

Ann: I don’t think it’s a downgrade. You’re learning something new. And you know, yeah, moving into what you might want to be doing. It’s your passion. So yeah, you also know your current situation is not what you want.

Stacy (50:56): Exactly. Yeah, love that. Okay, rapid fire. What’s more stressful, a trading floor in 2008, or service during the dinner rush?

Ann: Depends, actually. That’s the, I would just say that depends.

Stacy: Okay. Both stressful.

Ann: Stressful in different ways. The trading floor thing, I mean, actually probably similar because a lot of things are out of your control. And it’s a lot of different moving parts.

Stacy: Okay. Yeah. Best flavor of bubble tea.

Ann: I love lychee oolong.  I love oolong tea.

Stacy: Describe Pasjoli in three words.

Ann: Fun. Delicious. That’s important. And French. French. Our new tagline is French is fun. And it’s definitely fun there. Fun.

Stacy (52:05): I like that. Okay. Favorite dish at either of your restaurants.

Ann: Um, okay. So, Celine is different. It is a multi-course 15 course tasting menu and it changes with every season. He has a dish there. It’s caviar paired with a coffee anglaise. Yeah, which, it’s been on the menu since day one.

He changes everything else except for this dish. And it’s funny because I said this is going to be your dish that you’re known for. And two months in, people were not understanding the coffee caviar dish.

And he said, I’m going to take it off. And I said, you can’t take it off. It needs to stay on because people are used to eating caviar a very specific way. It’s this super precious thing that you eat it, you know, on a blini with egg whites and crème fraiche and all that. And that’s the only way it can be eaten in it. You have to taste the caviar.

So, the purpose of the coffee caviar dish is that it’s the idea that you’re not coveting caviar, and it’s being used for the flavor, a little bit of saltiness and the texture, the smoothness of the eggs. And our caviar happens to have a nutty brown butter flavor. So, it goes really well with coffee.

And this dish really represents the entire ethos of the restaurant. Celine, it’s, it’s the idea that when you go and dine there, he wants you to leave all your preconceived notions at the door and just come in being curious with an open mind. And, you know, as if you’re seeing everything for the first time.

So, I really love that dish, because not only of the way it tastes, but because of what it represents. I also don’t love caviar. But I love that dish.

At PJ. It’s probably the cheesecake, the burnt Basque cheesecake that we talked about.

Stacy: Yeah, I’m getting hungry. And last one, ultimate comfort food.

Ann: Oh, uh, any kind of soup.

Stacy: Okay, that would so not be my comfort food!

Ann: Like noodle beef noodle soup.

Stacy: Okay. Okay. Yeah. I’m not doing comfort food with you. I might eat some French fries, but okay. That’s all I have. Is there anything that I left out that you want to add? I’ll definitely put links to your restaurants and all of that in the in the notes.

Ann: I don’t think so. I hope I didn’t ramble too much.

Stacy: No, it’s so interesting, because I know you in a different context. So I love learning new things. And yeah, what a great, great, what’s the word? trajectory and path that you’ve enjoyed and such a good example of how it’s not just, you know, you get into a good business school, graduate, and you get that job.

This degree really supports you through all the twists and turns and decisions that you make. And I’ll be watching to see what’s next for you.

Ann (55:28): Yeah, it’s funny, when I was younger, probably in my 30s, and obviously going to MIT, all of these parents would be like, “Oh, can you talk to my son or daughter about how important it is to be at these really good schools?”

And I thought, I don’t really think it’s that. I don’t really think it’s that important. I don’t know if I’m the right person to talk to, because I think the experience that you get at school is what you make of it

Stacy: Yeah. Right. 100%.

Ann: So, you know, at Kellogg, it’s like trying to do everything. And just basically, I think for me at Kellogg, it wasn’t the curriculum. It was good. And, you know, I had classes that I liked, but for me, it was more about building relationships. Because those are the relationships that come further down the line.

Like we dabbled very temporarily in, oh, should we do some sort of consumer product line? You know, a lot of restaurants do that. I had no, I had no idea how to do it.

Now I have friends who are CEOs now of consumer product companies. And for me to shoot them an email and say, yeah, let’s hop on the phone and I’ll run you through it really at a high level. Like, it’s just, that is not something I have from undergrad.

So. Yeah. Yeah.

Stacy (56:50): It’s the gift that keeps on giving. Yeah. So, thank you so much for joining me and having this conversation. And yeah, I can’t wait to see where you go with all, all the food and restaurants. And I think I need a giant cheesecake now.